ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

We had a fun match with the BoB clan last sunday. A Victory in Goldrush, draw in Dustbowl but unfortunately an utter defeat in Fastlane. Sure we had our moments - and many of the likes. The next clanwar will be in no time, and I for one am enthusiastic about getting our skill up to win the day. This topic is about improving our teamplay to a new level. First would you start by reading all the posts in the topic of Bob vs GM to see what has been discussed earlier.
https://www.gamingmasters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=780

Now, the other topic really has many of the key points of this discussion. Here we talk about the following:
-the use of classes in a larger team in specific situations and maps, and 2-4 player squads
-the roles of each class in as much detail as we can including priorities
-basic protocols, communication, completing objective vs scoring points
-maps-specific locations and maneuvers as tools of the leader
-the system of leading
-other relevant subjects

The other topic gives you the idea of how to approach this one, so start with that. When you look at the list above, something will focus your attention.
I - want YOU - to give YOUR opinion on an area of that subject. Remember people that you are the GM because you have skill, your opinion has weight. It's as simple as that. I would advise you to get on with it sooner rather than later, the next match is on 4th of AUG. Time is a precious commodity.


"Tell of Victory"
"Victory. -- Yes, my lord"

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

I was going to address each of your points in turn, but I think I can take them all on in one word – communication. Each class has specific abilities and strengths and we need to play to that, one of the most annoying things I see on public servers is medics constantly ubering heavys to kill sentry guns half a map away... So to be the best team possible in a large match each person needs to understand what their class is there for. To take a specific situation: lots of sentry guns but only a soldier, heavy and medic. They might take them down, but a single demoman will do a much better job; all that need be done is for someone to call for a demoman and give their location.

I think the squads idea is excellent and will certainly gel the team as a whole, as long as there is a recognised leader of each squad who is aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the classes he is commanding. In order to do this as well as possible everyone in the squad is going to need a mic, but there may be need to be some kind of system to prevent all the classes flooding the mic and preventing the leaders from communicating overall strategy. Important information that needs to be immediately communicated includes: Death of enemy medic, death of friendly medic, uber incoming or ready, positions of sentry guns, enemy snipers and rabid screams whenever you see a spy. This information should allow the leaders (assuming more than 1 squad) to co-ordinate effective attacks and position their own people as well as possible: in the majority of maps there are not that many avenues of attack, so tactics becomes more about co-ordinating attacks down all of these avenues rather than flooding just one.

As for the system of leading the most important thing to do is establish a chain of command that is not too unwieldy – given 2 squads of 5 and competent players then all that is really needed are 2 leaders, 1 for each squad. Their role is to direct their own squad and communicate with each other to organise attacks/support each other’s defence. A second in command may be necessary in each squad to take over when the leader is killed; this role will need to be clearly defined as confusion could rapidly arise with frequent changes of command – as such if the whole team can have voice comms which can be used whilst dead (Tricky’s Ventrilo channel for example) then the second only becomes necessary in the event of the leader lagging out/crashing etc. The only major problem may be personality clashes: some people may object to having their movements dictated by someone else - only thing we can do about this is to ensure leaders are clear in their communication, impartial and friendly, especially when things are not going so well.

If I can pose a question of my own: do you think class choice is a factor in determining who should function as a squad leader?

Nick.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

That's one of the reasons I play Medic, I can scream around
I think the Medic is good as such a "leader", as he's always with the team....

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

@ Pissmidget and waebi
I.. well I'm astounded by your post, you really got it. About the 3rd pragraph... that's exactly true! I wonder if you've had any military experience yourself..?

@ 1st paragraph - I agree.
@ 2nd paragraph - I am fairly confident that once we have discussed the roles of each class in here, we will have sufficiently clear commchannel. Once the roles are learned the radio traffic will reduce and squad leader has no need to describe in detail what he(she) needs from a certain player, functions will be more or less automatic. But that comes only with experience, exceptions will happen of course. I would like to add somthing to the list of MUST-ANNOUNCE-IMMEDIATELY: Enemy has ubercharge ready. Keep listening if you hear a german accent saying "I'm fully charged" somewhere you know your medic is not. Also I recommend the reports for every kill. If you lose or you both retreat, should you announce "low health soldier right side door" or "medic is weak"? That is a very situational question. The idea is that if some other friendlies are in the area they might have the opportunity to fire some rounds or nades in the general direction. Also the scouts can take priority to converge paths with the wounded enemy and finish them off. Another thing I have seen necessary playing pickup games is to report the enemy on high ground close to friendlies, or somewhere else behind our lines or in flanks in a position to use the element of surprise.
Something I wrote about the high ground and the element of surprise earlier:

@ 3rd pragraph - What you said about personality clashes, that is very true. It is also one of the reasons why I would like everyone to contribute here, so ppl understand the context and what is best for the team. Leaders being friendly? Yes of course. Remember that this is only game, if you mess up no worries but do what you can to fix the problem. We all make more or less mistakes, and need to adapt.

I must say that I agree that class is a factor in choosing the leader, but not a requirement. More important IMO is that the leader has developed skill to be constantly aware of the battlefield. That in turn is only possible with the reports of the team. As waebi pointed out the medic is inherently a class in a position to concentrate forming the overview of the battle, but there is no reason why a scout or any class for that matter couldn't lead the entire team when properly informed.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

No military experience but I am writing a PhD on the military and political role of Generals in ancient Greece - leadership plays a large part of this so this discussion is right up my street

@ your other points - all good stuff! Telling the scouts which of the enemy is damaged/weak is an excellent idea

However at the end of the day we are going to need everyone to have a mic and be confident enough to use it - I think this is the only major problem to overcome. Once people are talking to each other then game and teamplay will improve greatly, even before that communication gets up to the standard we are talking about

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Well said guys - I would only add that you need to prepare for the unexpected. What if the leader is respawning, what if the enemy overload a class, what if we are getting fragged and need to change tactics. Squad play is the way to go, but as I have said elsewhere, squad leaders need to know both terrain and capabilities - so this is hard work.

Core, do we need designations for this? I think for the -X, -Z and -F teams is it workable.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

@ Protantus

A valid point, things will at some time go in unexpected ways. (If they don't, we can consider ourselves very skilled or the opposing team rookies) When things go south -> as in we have messed up a push or lost a control point, one must evaluate his(her) current position. Half the team respawning, no clear line of defence; it is a dangerous situation and also difficult for a leader. What should be done IMO is to report current status so that nearby reinforcements know where to go assist. Respawning players must form pairs and groups on their own and advance on the route of the greatest importance, engaging in "forward defence" until squad is full again.

If current position is impossible to hold, retreat to a suitable area and wait for back-up. Suppose that we have agreed on a routine that team1 "alpha" goes always the left side and team2 "bravo" goes right side, everyone should know which side they need to assist. It will take approximately 10-20 seconds until the squad has regained around 75% of its strength, at which point it can be considered to have the firepower to hold an entrance even when outnumbered. How so? Well an entrance is a choke point. Friendlies can concentrate fire on a single spot for a devastating effect, while the rushing enemy hasn't got the possibility to concentrate their fire to disrupt enough the defending forces to advance without severe losses.

If all this cannot be accomplished, the enemy has simply outskilled us. It is possible though that during the match we discover a weakness in our strategy and manage to successfully remove it. Ask yourself in 1v1 combat and otherwise, how would I attack against myself?

For a leader, restoring order in a chaos requires regular reports from team members. We must keep an eye on the scoreboard. Suppose that four enemies (out of 10) are down, and left side reports "four enemies coming left side". Now, the right side knows that there are a maximum of 2 players defending on their way. Possibly even none. Consider pushing to a further line of forward defence and/or sending a unit to assist left side.

Reports are the key.

"..covers the man on the left - to the neck."

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

to add some thoughts:

@ Lover-Higher Ground: Soli can be awesome at higher.ground but really sucks at lower.grounds. For Solis it's really a crucial factor. Even more than for other classes.

@ Teamwork: Lots of good input. What i want to add: the team might have a better start, when general tactics and roles are established BEFORE the match starts. So the 2 squadleader, and members know who their leader is/members are. If the team is established, this might not be necessary anymore, but for the first matches, it could really help.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

That is very true.

Yes, yes indeed.

Soldiers on high grounds are multiple times as effective as soldiers on low ground, and that also goes for the demoman.

I have thought about the idea of Protantus to have smaller squads, as in pairs and triplets. Sure that might work very well, who says a squad must have a medic? Think about this; if you move in pairs with any other class, your combination of strengths should severely reduce the enemies' possibilities to use your weaknesses in advantage. Another advantage to this is that with 3 fighting squads more routes can be guarded.

About he call signs: I think we are using enough numbers as it is, so Team1s and Squad2s are out of the question. I propose that we use the NATO alphabet, as the military does. Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India Juliet Kilo Lima Mike November Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo Sierra Tango Uniform Victor Whiskey X-ray Yankee Zulu (Åke Äiti Öljy). In FDF reserve officer school I was in a company of three platoons: Alfa, Bravo and Charlie (I was in Bravo). The system worked well.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Okay. Time to break it down in case we have been too cryptic so far.
We fight clanwars which we would like to win. Winning is only possible when we use our strengths and do not let the enemy take advantage of our weaknesses. This goes for every match be it official or public. Now. Each class has strenghts and weaknesses. When classes support each other, they can negate the weaknesses by covering each other and working together. Whenever a team with no system of any kind wins, its because of 1) a sufficient gap in individual skill or 2) because of luck, chance. By chance when several different classes rush together or by chance when team rushes just the moment when all sentries are down at the same time, or when the sniper took out the medic.

The idea here in this topic, basically, is to form the setups for each match - not by chance - but by choice. Before the match we agree who fights alongside who, and what kind of outlining strategy do we use in a map. We are here also to agree on the system of leading so that the chosen squads can work together and have someone to tell what to do - where and when. Communication is a vital part of the effective teamplay. Not speaking in the mic, but communication. How to communicate is an important subject of this topic.

I can imagine that the idea of having a leader in a TF2 match sounds odd if you've never done anything like that before. Its not that special! You do what you do best, you OWN! As a heavy, solly, sniper, demo, medic, whatever! The leader is not your manager breathing to your neck but a player who's job is to know where you should be doing the killing in order to help your team the most! We choose the leader together here, before the match, so everyone agrees that one will help the team most in the place where the leader has ordered one to be.

If, in your opinion, this is not the way to go, please present an option. If there are none, lets just go play pubs. Now that I come to think of it, it may be hard to learn anything here reading something that is supposed to be done... Should we gather to a server and talk about a few things and how to actually do them, like how to move in a squad for example? I would like to know of everyone who has read this topic. Your thoughts? I really mean everyone.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Agreed,

I think its enough talking/writing in this topic.

The best way to explore this more is to all gather on a server and test everyones idea's.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Unfortunately i didn't read the last posts before the match against TBR today.
What i can say: We try to increase the communication, but it is pretty much unstructured and ineffective right now. Almost everyone does what he wants to, and tells the result via comm. which leads to some kind of spamming, but no effective commands. And today, there was still no one leading the team. And squads didn't exist. Everyone did what he wanted to do, and told the others...

Still a lot of work to do!

What we really don't know, is how to act in a squad. What the role of every class is, and which actions have to be done at which situations...

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Well I was hoping that experts of every class would come here and tell how to play them. Learning how to play in a squad comes with experience. Its not easy to explain, but it is basically fulfilling the role of your class. There are some fine quides in http://tf2strategy.com/ and http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page. Browse through these sites. I learned loads of good stuff... the damage outputs of every weapon at different rates are nice to know for example.

I'd like that Sandman would shed some light on the Heavy Weapons Guy and share some insights on how to play it in various situations, and Waebi, if you could tell us mortals how to play the Medic and help the team the most optimal way, that would be awesome!

Everyone could think about things that we could practice amongst ourselves on the match server, in private, to see how they are done for real. And book some casual 10v10 matches soon so we can play those. And about the leading, It was a mess last time since we hadn't really agreed on anything other than a number of GMs said that it sounds like a good idea. I say that the next match you trust me the position and evaluate how I will do. Can't say if I'm the best choice atm, but I probably have (in all fairness) the most experience in GM. For those who don't know, I've had 12 months of military training in the Finninsh Defence Forces. It was as real as it can be without actually fighting in a life-threatning combat situation. During the latter 6 months I trained a platoon of 31 privates, 2 corporals, 6 sergeants and an officer (me), 3-5 squads and 40 men in total. The 14 week officer-training was intense, including joint operations with the engineer company, antitank platoons, the AA and field-artillery batteries and the support battalion of course. So leading a team of 10 men and 2 squads in TF2 for me is... well, kinda my thing ! (If you really must know, I'm proficient with these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_62, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_HP-DA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSV, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKM, http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg31-e.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APILAS, and my rank in real life is 2nd lieutenant)

Ahem... well lets go train something, maybe tomorrow (thursday) around 7-9pm BST? At the weekend we might have more people online of course, lets meet on the match server then! Also could some admins or clan leaders announce the time on the forums more prominently please? Thoughts?

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Okay first teamplay training session was tonight, thursday 7th AUG. We discussed a few important points on how to play the demoman, soldier, scout, medic and the heavy. Later we split into three squads including the scouts and rolled over the map a few times, point by point, training movement in squads and as a large team. A simutaneus push to the last point looked great, very dangerous! The play improved with every run. After that we played 5v5 a couple of rounds and practiced communication and teamwork against similar squads (well almost similar that is, with a few random pyros thrown in the mix).

I must say that I was positively surprised by the level of interest with 12 attendants on the server, on time. I have a few questions for all who were there:

What did you like about the session? (several points if you think so)
What did you learn that you consider highly important?
How did you like the squad idea and the way we trained it?
and most importantly
How would you like to make the training sessions better?

We can make the sessions more efficient with your advice and get more into the core of the matters, in the future. I see this as a good start in improving our teamplay skill.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

1) The background info about some classes was nice. The movement in squads, was also very valueable, even if "prepare for push" sounds like "push now" to some of us The training match at the end was valueable.

2) The importance of the Demo concerning holding back the enemy with visible stickies. Gives your team time to gather for the next push. Don't push one by one, but all together (i knew that, but have rarely seen it during real-matches)

3) I liked it a lot. The way we trained it was the best you can do without a real enemy... very theoretical, but still valueable.

4) More hands on examples:
- Example Demoman Training Session:
- First let's talk about the demo in generall

- Second let's talk about the enemies of the demo: like scout
- Half of the team goes scout, and half of the team goes demo. Fight against each other
- Switch roles.
- Conclude
- Repeat with other enemies of the demo (if necessary)

Concerning the Squadmovement: You commandered the whole team. To be effective, we would need a leader for each squad, and the leaders have to communicate the important infos to the other leaders. But thats hard to practice without an enemy.

For the 5vs5 match in the end, the communication in my team failed epicly. Pyro is a heavily overpowered class, that might be standard in 6vs6 in the future... After the match a conclusion round within each team would be great. To everyone that was not using a headset > shame on you.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

1) What did you like about the session? (several points if you think so)
-I learned some new tactics on granary, a map i havent played much yet.
-People were there in time, gave some good tips, though some were obvious.

2) What did you learn that you consider highly important?
-The squadbased movements were valuable, i havent played granary a lot but i like the map, the ledge at second-last CP was something i hadnt
thought of yet .

3) How did you like the squad idea and the way we trained it?
-I love it, great idea, training itself was well-organised as well.
The 5v5 we did afterwards was fun and educative at the same time.

4) How would you like to make the training sessions better?
Well, everyone should be quiet ingame, sometimes it was hard to understand what someone was saying because there were people rocket jumping etc.
Communication was severely lacking in my team (was i on your team myke?), i myself barely used my mic as well, mainly because i wasnt feeling very
well.
- About squad-leaders, i agree with myke.
- About more hands-on training sessions, i also agree with myke

Conclusion: It was, imo, time well spent, i think most of us had fun while learning some tactics on granary. I suggest we do the same for a different map sometime soon, especially the positions for each class at any time.
Also, in-depth class vs class/ class vs class+medic/ class vs class1+class2 info would be something i think we can all benefit from.
Discussing targets with the highest priority and such. -Shoot the scout going to our cp, or the medic running because his heavy just died-
Just my two cents

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Can someone upload a demo so I can comment as well please? Sorry I couldn't be there Th, i'm no expert but i'm sure i'd have had something to contribute - will do so once i've watched the demo.

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

demo is up already...
http://81.19.221.10/
login/pass= GM/GM

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

Np pissmidget.

There has been lots of good input so far, the rest of you don't be afraid to post in here. There is no way of knowing what others know but others don't so stating something obvious is not always a bad idea, at least we make sure that everybody knows right?

 

Re: ClanWars in a coordinated fashion FTW

After our complete defeat on granary I've been thinking about some options and battleplans that we could use. Take a look at this picture.

Your tasks in the order of importance:
A) Demomen: 1) hold left side from all non-ubered enemies 2) try to kill 1st enemies with a stickytrap, hold the rest 3) nades as artillery where they are needed most
B) Soldiers: 1) hold the high ground, assist the demomen when needed 2) fire all targets together as a pair 3) relentless fire to any non-uber enemies pushing on point or the right side
C) Heavies: 1) let me make this abundantly clear you-are-THE-FRONTLINE do not let anyone get through 2) especially watch your own back 3) support fire to high ground 4) DO NOT try to run in enemy flanks

?) Before the buffed flamethrower, pyro was only good to rush with an uber, but now... Their ubers completely broke our lines last time. The next time however... we can use the pyro to 1) repel any ubered enemy and to 2) use our uber to pyro. See, unlike the heavy pyro can inflict massive damage while moving. Ignite, do some damage and move on. The enemy is hurt plus now he has a deadline (pun intended) - in 10 seconds he will lose 50 hp. If he doesn't die, he likely can't take any more hits either, so he will probably run (or go kamikaze). IF the pyros are successful in repelling both ubers... we will NOT use our ubers SIMULTANEOUSLY. It will take only 40 seconds to charge uber from 0 to 100% when healing wounded friendlies. We use the ubers one after another after another etc. Think about that. Oh yes. 3) The pyro must be informed on any incoming uber, also he must keep an eye out for them himself as well.

D) Medics:
-- The medic is not an easy class to play, but some people in general out there seem to think so. We must not have a medic who doesn't know how to play medic - EVER! That would be a highway to defeat. If anything the medic is a class that requires most specialization, more than any other class cos' he is so important. --
1) Heal everyone, and someone at all times 2) Keep an eye out in the directions where your current buddy is not looking, REPORT! 3) keep friendlies buffed 4) In case of the enemy uber your priority patient is the nearby pyro
E) Demomen and soldiers MUST stickyjump and RJ ASAP to get on high ground fast enough. I cannot stress this enough, THIS is the most crucial part of the midpoint battleplan. Especially to soldiers on the right: RJ of the wall for a low and fast jump, and the next on the container approx. the same time the enemy has 1st players on them. Fight them off! The medic absolutely MUST have the demomen and sollies at 150% when the setup is over.

The high grounds are the team priorities, others must support, the heavies, even the pyro with a shotgun if there are no ubers incoming. Another thing I want to try: Multi uber 2 pyros - 1 with a flamethrower - the other with the axtinguisher 8-)

I want to try this plan in the next match. Now tell me, what have I not thought of?